The roads to freedom in photography

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

Hi everybody,

today i would like to talk about the concept of ''freedom'' and ''freedom in photography'', i hope that you will be interested in this theme.

In the first place ''freedom'' is a philosophical concept wich involves no constraints, this absence of constraints involves a relationship with the supranatural plan.

So if we admit that destiny exists, then the concept of freedom no longer exists, because destiny is established word by word and action by action by gods.

But if we admit that destiny doesen't exists, but God exists then we have free will, wich involves reason and will, this is the theory of Toma D'Aquino.

I will like to step from the rationalist philosophy period and talk about ontological philosophy, the concept of the 20 century.

The existenstialist philosophy started with Jean Paul Sartre who wrote the beautiful nouvel Nausea wich treats such notions as bourgeois bad faith, ignoring the contingency, inexplicability of life and freedom. Sartre says that we are condemned to be free, because once thrown into the world, we are responsible for everything that we do, so if we admit we are free then we are responsible for everything that we are doing.

Now that we ve defined the term and made a short history about this concept, let' s talk about freedom in photography, i would like to ask a question to all of you

''Can we admit the concept of freedom in photography ? ''

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Daniel,

It's a very interesting topic. I'll reply shortly for now.

First and foremost our photographic freedom is constrained by what we can physically and legally shoot (or shoot unpunished). Then it is constrained by our equipment limits, as well as limits of post-processing software. Furthermore, it is constrained by our personality limits (what we allow ourselves or what we are able to imagine and teach ourselves). And lastly, our freedom is constrained by those whom we choose to consider our audience.

Otherwise, we are free, photographically speaking :-)

Anna

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

I'd like to add to my post in response to one more OP idea:

Philosophically and generally, I am usually against "all or nothing" concepts, mostly because they usually poorly fit the reality. It's not like 100% destiny or 100% freedom are our only choices when we decide how free we are. We are always free within certain limits, photography or not. Then we can discuss these limits and whether some of them can be pushed or contracted.

Deleted User

12 years ago

Daniel, do you think all achieve their destiny, if destiny exists? I believe that many make free choices that circumvent, or expand, or enhance their destiny.

As a man who values freedom, I choose to believe in potential rather than destiny. And since I am free, my potential is unlimited.

Gianni Giatilis

12 years ago

Hi everybody,

Sartre says that we are condemned to be free, because once thrown into the world, we are responsible for everything that we do, so if we admit we are free then we are responsible for everything that we are doing.

Now that we ve defined the term and made a short history about this concept, let' s talk about freedom in photography, i would like to ask a question to all of you

''Can we admit the concept of freedom in photography ? ''

As Anna wrote, a really interesting topic you opened Daniel !

In a realistic world though, I would partially agree with Sartre because our freedom (or destiny), at least up to a certain age, is defined by our social - economic environment.

I'd like to add to my post in response to one more OP idea:

Philosophically and generally, I am usually against "all or nothing" concepts, mostly because they usually poorly fit the reality. It's not like 100% destiny or 100% freedom are our only choices when we decide how free we are. We are always free within certain limits, photography or not. Then we can discuss these limits and whether some of them can be pushed or contracted.

I find this approach closer to mine in a pragmatic world.

Daniel, do you think all achieve their destiny, if destiny exists? I believe that many make free choices that circumvent, or expand, or enhance their destiny.

As a man who values freedom, I choose to believe in potential rather than destiny. And since I am free, my potential is unlimited.

I agree to this second phrase of yours Clyde and this is a western world philosophy. In the first sentence though I find a contradiction. Since Destiny is not defined by us, there is barely nothing to do to achieve it. It' s there waiting for us ! LOL

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

I believe in Destiny because I am born of Italian parents, and have been socialized from an early age to believe this is true. Faith plays a large role in the Italian culture of my parents generation.

I have had many events in life to confirm this belief....and two major ones both life changing and one life altering.

One of the major ones was living in a foreign country.I went to pick up my dry cleaning. I am from NY and I was living in Athens. That afternoon as I was paying for my pick up......the owner of the store said...in Greek to me..Can you help this man. She knew of course that I was an American. I had not seen the man standing right next to me.

I looked over and there was this man who asked me questions about his laundry. I answered them.....but I could not take my eyes off of his eyes..they were gorgeous. So I started a chat. He had just moved into the neighborhood and was living around the corner from me. He had been in Athens..for a year before this but in another part of town.

I do not know how or why I said this..but I looked at him not more than one minute after we met and I said to him... "This is Destiny."...I just 'knew'....We made a date...two years later were married.

When he was a young man he would sit on the shores of Blackpool England looking out at what he saw as America...and dreaming of the day he would come over..here..He went to Greece, I went to Greece...neither of us are Greek..and on that day...at that hour we met in the dry cleaners...In the next two years..although we lived around the corner..we never met on the Street again.

Coincidence? I don't believe so.

However Destiny only started there...because I also believe in Free Will.

At any point in time I could have decided to walk away from this relationship, but I did not. I chose (important word) to stay.

In the same way I do think that one can choose with Photography also. Many choices are open to you if you are not in jail..but some may cause you to go to jail. Now we all know that some have made that choice...the important word for me is choice..I have to add, that even in jail you can choose Freedom..though your destiny has you locked up...The perfect example of this for me is Hurricane Carter.

We make choices...So yes there is freedom in Photography..if you are willing to take the consequences...

So, I do not think Photography is any different than other kinds of things we do in terms of our free will. The only constraint is this one..Are you willing to deal with the consequences of your actions for which you are responsible?

Destiny does not imply a loss of free will. They are not mutually exclusive.

I also believe though it is very difficult to practice - freedom is actually the ability to control desire if it will cause suffering to yourself or another.. That is the real freedom , and maybe the only freedom...as the Buddhists would say.

So, take your photos, and take responsibility for the outcome.

P.

Gianni Giatilis

12 years ago

What a wonderful story Phyllis, to many coincidences, so it must be Destiny !!!

Free will is an important key, as in real life sadly, we don' t have this feature of

choosing the History tab and go a few steps back !

This is taking responsibility for our actions, photographic or not.

Gianni

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

Anna, i agree with you're reply, honestly i don't think that we are 100% free, we can't decide when it should rain or when the sun should rise, we are constraint by nature, so we aren't this free as the theory of freedom reply.

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

I'd like to add to my post in response to one more OP idea:

Philosophically and generally, I am usually against "all or nothing" concepts, mostly because they usually poorly fit the reality. It's not like 100% destiny or 100% freedom are our only choices when we decide how free we are. We are always free within certain limits, photography or not. Then we can discuss these limits and whether some of them can be pushed or contracted.

Yes this is true, honestly i accept the term of freedom only in the ontological philosophy, but there are a few ideas wich we can aply in reality.

''A free man won't propose absurd things''

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

Daniel, do you think all achieve their destiny, if destiny exists? I believe that many make free choices that circumvent, or expand, or enhance their destiny.

As a man who values freedom, I choose to believe in potential rather than destiny. And since I am free, my potential is unlimited.

Hi Clyde,

well if we admit that destiny exists that means that we don't have free will, this means that how hard we try, our actions will fail because our actions are made by gods so it s absurd to think that we can change our destiny, if we admit that destiny exists. The mith of Sysyphus by Albert Camus is a great example of absurdism, freedom and destiny.

You said that you value freedom and your potential is unlimited, i don't agree with this, because if you consider yourself a free man then you are responsabile for what you do, ok you re potential as an artist is unlimited, but you are constraint by laws if you do something bad then you re responsible, but i like to think that a free man wich believes in reason is free in the state where he lives rather then solitude where he only listens to itself.

Deleted User

12 years ago

Hi Clyde,

well if we admit that destiny exists that means that we don't have free will, this means that how hard we try, our actions will fail because our actions are made by gods so it s absurd to think that we can change our destiny, if we admit that destiny exists.

By who's definition? Perhaps we need Phyllis to start a thread to get this clarified and properly guided?

Deleted User

12 years ago

Anna, i agree with you're reply, honestly i don't think that we are 100% free, we can't decide when it should rain or when the sun should rise, we are constraint by nature, so we aren't this free as the theory of freedom reply.

How does sunshine or rainfall constrain you?

Deleted User

12 years ago

And BTW, free men propose absurd things every day!! And thank God for it!!

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Anna, i agree with you're reply, honestly i don't think that we are 100% free, we can't decide when it should rain or when the sun should rise, we are constraint by nature, so we aren't this free as the theory of freedom reply.

How does sunshine or rainfall constrain you?

Rain? By limiting your possibility of taking sunshine vacation pictures :-)

And BTW, free men propose absurd things every day!! And thank God for it!!

For me freedom and absurdity are not correlated.

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

Hi Clyde,

well if we admit that destiny exists that means that we don't have free will, this means that how hard we try, our actions will fail because our actions are made by gods so it s absurd to think that we can change our destiny, if we admit that destiny exists.

By who's definition? Perhaps we need Phyllis to start a thread to get this clarified and properly guided?

Sorry for my bad english Clyde,

well i tried to explain Toma D'Aquino theory of free will. And you ve said that if destiny exists, people can make free choices that enhance their destiny, this thing doesen't conclude with T D theory. So if we admit that destiny exists then we don't have free will, and if we admit that God exists, destiny doesen't exist.

Now it's ok ?

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

Anna, i agree with you're reply, honestly i don't think that we are 100% free, we can't decide when it should rain or when the sun should rise, we are constraint by nature, so we aren't this free as the theory of freedom reply.

How does sunshine or rainfall constrain you?

well very simple, if i am 100% free then i decide when it rains when the sun goes down, and if i can't do this things i am constrained by mother nature.

I ve tried to say that we can't be free at all so the theory of freedom is dismised in real life

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

And BTW, free men propose absurd things every day!! And thank God for it!!

I understant Clyde, i didn't said that absurd people are unhappy, if you like to be absurd and you are happy then you re existance isn't null

Deleted User

12 years ago

For me freedom and absurdity are not correlated.

Well they are when free women say absurd things!

Rain? By limiting your possibility of taking sunshine vacation pictures :-)

No, it's not the rain that's constraining you on those days, it's your desire for sunshine vacation pictures.

Deleted User

12 years ago

Sorry for my bad english Clyde,

well i tried to explain Toma D'Aquino theory of free will. And you ve said that if destiny exists, people can make free choices that enhance their destiny, this thing doesen't conclude with T D theory. So if we admit that destiny exists then we don't have free will, and if we admit that God exists, destiny doesen't exist.

Now it's ok ?

There was no problem with your English my friend. My point is that "destiny", like many other concepts, means different thing to different people. Toma's idea of what destiny means and the constraints of that meaning are just his opinion or his conclusions. They are not, for example Anna's, or for that matter mine.

I still think Phyllis needs to start a thread to get this straight and properly guided...

well very simple, if i am 100% free then i decide when it rains when the sun goes down, and if i can't do this things i am constrained by mother nature.

I ve tried to say that we can't be free at all so the theory of freedom is dismised in real life

No, not at all. If you are 100% free then you have a 100% choice of what to do when it rains. You might choose to stay indoors. I and most folks in NYC today might choose to ignore the rain and go outdoors and splash about and poke other folks in the eye with their umbrellas.

Freedom is personal in this context, you have complete freedom but you don't control others or other forces including nature. That would be rather that your were God.

Robert PRO

12 years ago

I agree to most of all what has been written but the fact is that most creative people have not lived in freedom which proves that constrains are a cause for mind freedom and creativity. The same mirrors the society. And do not forget, we are all still egotist.

"only a free soul allows the mind to travel"

In more simple words "rules are there to be broken"

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Robert: "... the fact is that most creative people have not lived in freedom which proves that constrains are a cause for mind freedom and creativity. "

I fail to do such mental statistics about creative people. And what is to live in freedom in this context? Having money to spend? Be able to make choices? Living in a Western democratic country in 20th century and later?

But yes, censorship, which is certainly restricting freedom of speech and artistic expression, hones skills of double meaning, innuendo, multiple layers and not quite defined content, which are all hallmarks of high art.

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Anna: "Rain? By limiting your possibility of taking sunshine vacation pictures :-)"

Clyde: "No, it's not the rain that's constraining you on those days, it's your desire for sunshine vacation pictures."

It's a very interesting point and I've been thinking on and of about it all day: the ability of one's desires to constraint one's freedom. But isn't it the definition of freedom to do as I desire? So which my desires manifest my freedom and which my desires actually constraint my freedom? How do I differentiate between them?

One possibility is to think that long term goals or desires manifest my freedom, and short term desires which interfere with my long term desires actually constraint my freedom to pursue my long-terms goals. Then, once a long term goal is established, it becomes a constraint on interferences. Which is, probably, good if I want to do something more serious about my life (like a successful photography carrier).

Either way, one's conflicting desires become constraints on each other and one would hope that one is free to decide which desires constitute freedom and which desires constitute constraints...

Anna

P.S. If it's not clear - just ask :-) . I tried...

Deleted User

12 years ago

It's a very interesting point and I've been thinking on and of about it all day: the ability of one's desires to constraint one's freedom. But isn't it the definition of freedom to do as I desire? So which my desires manifest my freedom and which my desires actually constraint my freedom? How do I differentiate between them?

Anna

P.S. If it's not clear - just ask :-) . I tried...

I think a reset of context is due here, otherwise I would get lost in the deeper paragraph which I choose not to quote.

Vis a vie photography: If you desire sunshine and nature gives you rain, don't get hung up on not having sunshine, go play in the rain with your camera. Look for the small things that rain can embellish or the large things that sunshine would have hidden.

Ikka Capellan

12 years ago

Hello Daniel,

Founding this site was a luck, but founding this forum the second luck:

well freedom in photography!

Can I do all? Now - all is limited by the society we live in.

If I live at a island alone, we are dependend of the nature!

Can I do all in arte, yes, if you are able to accept the critisme of other,

also depend!

Can I do what I want? yes, if you accept your limits of body, of spirit or of

the ability for development of myself.

A difficult question with different answers.

What I can decide for myself: I will be a good photographer!!

Ikka

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

It's a very interesting point and I've been thinking on and of about it all day: the ability of one's desires to constraint one's freedom. But isn't it the definition of freedom to do as I desire? So which my desires manifest my freedom and which my desires actually constraint my freedom? How do I differentiate between them?

Anna

P.S. If it's not clear - just ask :-) . I tried...

I think a reset of context is due here, otherwise I would get lost in the deeper paragraph which I choose not to quote.

Vis a vie photography: If you desire sunshine and nature gives you rain, don't get hung up on not having sunshine, go play in the rain with your camera. Look for the small things that rain can embellish or the large things that sunshine would have hidden.

Desires vs unchangeable reality, as you suggest to contemplate, is easy: you indeed just adjust to reality, as you suggest. The freedom aspect becomes complicated though when its one's own desires vs one's own desires. So I would like someone's feedback on that.

I'll give a photography related real life example, which does not reflect all possible freedom problems related to desires or to the freedom definitions based on desires. Yes, I want to express myself, my vision, through at least some of my pictures. And yes, I would like people to like my vision. Still, I have enough experience of many people not liking or being indifferent of my vision, as expressed on a number of pictures. If I desire to take it into account, this disliking, it will curtail my expression. If I desire to disregard this disliking, it will curtail my acceptance. Which of my desires are freedom and which of my desires are constraints?

Deleted User

12 years ago

Hello Daniel,

Founding this site was a luck, but founding this forum the second luck:

well freedom in photography!

Can I do all? Now - all is limited by the society we live in.

If I live at a island alone, we are dependend of the nature!

Can I do all in arte, yes, if you are able to accept the critisme of other,

also depend!

Can I do what I want? yes, if you accept your limits of body, of spirit or of

the ability for development of myself.

A difficult question with different answers.

What I can decide for myself: I will be a good photographer!!

Ikka

And Ikka, you will be a better photographer and person if you abandon all those limits you spoke of. None of them are real limits. If you live on an island alone, and you feel limited by it move, build a boat if you have to. Or, go look at the other side of the island, it may inspire you more.

The society you live in is a poor measure of freedom imo. And certainly, the criticism of others if the least important concern of art for me.

Don't accept limits of body and certainly not of spirit or potential.

Clyde

Deleted User

12 years ago

Which of my desires are freedom and which of my desires are constraints?

Better: Which of my desires are more important to me?

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Which of my desires are freedom and which of my desires are constraints?

Better: Which of my desires are more important to me?

So your solution for conflicting desires is: the more important desire is freedom and desires conflicting with it are constraints, right?

Deleted User

12 years ago

So your solution for conflicting desires is: the more important desire is freedom and desires conflicting with it are constraints, right?

No, my solution for conflicting desires is: use your freedom of choice and pick the more important one. You can always do the other one later on a sunny day.

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

So your solution for conflicting desires is: the more important desire is freedom and desires conflicting with it are constraints, right?

No, my solution for conflicting desires is: use your freedom of choice and pick the more important one. You can always do the other one later on a sunny day.

Looks like freedom is a very fleeting thing. Once you make your choice - there is no freedom anymore. And even when making your choice the reasonable algorithm is rather definite - pick the more important. Where is freedom in all of that? Almost none...

Deleted User

12 years ago

Looks like freedom is a very fleeting thing. Once you make your choice - there is no freedom anymore. And even when making your choice the reasonable algorithm is rather definite - pick the more important. Where is freedom in all of that? Almost none...

See you are completely free...free to think the glass half empty...free to over think things...now, free to have the last word...ready....GO!

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Looks like freedom is a very fleeting thing. Once you make your choice - there is no freedom anymore. And even when making your choice the reasonable algorithm is rather definite - pick the more important. Where is freedom in all of that? Almost none...

See you are completely free...free to think the glass half empty...free to over think things...now, free to have the last word...ready....GO!

C'mon, Clyde, you a free to invent something new to leave the last word to yourself, huh :-) ? Not to mention that I consider this discussion far from over and talking about the last word way premature...

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

So your solution for conflicting desires is: the more important desire is freedom and desires conflicting with it are constraints, right?

No, my solution for conflicting desires is: use your freedom of choice and pick the more important one. You can always do the other one later on a sunny day.

Looks like freedom is a very fleeting thing. Once you make your choice - there is no freedom anymore. And even when making your choice the reasonable algorithm is rather definite - pick the more important. Where is freedom in all of that? Almost none...

Yes Anna, this is the point of Sartre, when you say to youreself that you are free then you are condemned to be free, if you make an action you are responsible for that action, it s very logical.

So if you consider youreself a free person and take some forbidden photographs then you take the actions of what you ve done, i don't know if anyone on this list has experimented the comunist regim, in that days if you would photograph a church translation or the famous queues for bread or meat, or other atrocities and someone from the army or security would catch you with the camera in the eye, well the situation would be very very dangerous, you could pay with the price of freedom and in worst situations with life.

So lets become realists we are not as free as we thought, in childhood we are constraint of our parents of our society, of our Romanian punistic education system ( my case ), so what i've done when i realised that the world that i live in is absurd and has no sense, well i started to study photography, i started to be lone, i was walking in the wilderness every day and night, and it was a tremendous expierience of autoknowing, and get a sense into life, so photography for my is an ilusion, it s a shield it may sound absurd but when you re face to face to reality this is the best option to continue you re existance

Gianni Giatilis

12 years ago

So if you consider youreself a free person and take some forbidden photographs then you take the actions of what you ve done, i don't know if anyone on this list has experimented the comunist regim, in that days if you would photograph a church translation or the famous queues for bread or meat, or other atrocities and someone from the army or security would catch you with the camera in the eye, well the situation would be very very dangerous, you could pay with the price of freedom and in worst situations with life.

So lets become realists we are not as free as we thought, in childhood we are constraint of our parents of our society, of our Romanian punistic education system ( my case ), so what i've done when i realised that the world that i live in is absurd and has no sense, well i started to study photography, i started to be lone, i was walking in the wilderness every day and night, and it was a tremendous expierience of autoknowing, and get a sense into life, so photography for my is an ilusion, it s a shield it may sound absurd but when you re face to face to reality this is the best option to continue you re existance

Hi Daniel, my experience in 1975, just after the opening of Romania to western travelers. We were crossing the Danube bridge from Ruse (Bulgaria) to Giurgiu in Romania. We stopped to take a few family snap shots of the marvelous river view with my little Kodak. This was in no man's land between the two countries. But what a surprise ! when we got to the Romanian border in about 600 m, the customs police asked for my camera and they seized and "burned" the film pulling it out of the cassette, claiming I was taking photos of military bases. I was very lucky not to lose the camera as well. Another more severe incident in Bucharest made me really think of the meaning of freedom not only in taking photos but even talking to locals, as we were followed by secret police from minute one till our exit from the country 5 days later. In my later pro life, I faced many film seizures doing my job and some of them by extreme force.

As you say, social and I will add economic constrains, are the ones to face before the personal ones and before even thinking what is really the meaning of freedom.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

To everyone..

This is a good discussion.

I thank everyone who is relating back their ideas to Photography.

This group is not only about Philosophy ...but how it relates to Photography...So when you give your thoughts please related them back to Photography...

If you are already doing this..thank you very much.

Phyllis

Forum Moderator...

Ikka Capellan

12 years ago

So your solution for conflicting desires is: the more important desire is freedom and desires conflicting with it are constraints, right?

No, my solution for conflicting desires is: use your freedom of choice and pick the more important one. You can always do the other one later on a sunny day.

Looks like freedom is a very fleeting thing. Once you make your choice - there is no freedom anymore. And even when making your choice the reasonable algorithm is rather definite - pick the more important. Where is freedom in all of that? Almost none...

Citation: "No, my solution for conflicting desires is: use your freedom of choice and pick the more important one. You can always do the other one later on a sunny day."

Anna, that is Emanuel Kant opinion about this themata,, what do you can do decide, but sometimes you have no choice or you have to accept the situation that is; also there are situations, you have to decide between two bad things,

and what I think, all is a compromise for live.

I don't feel freedom, but I have desire for it.

Ikka just my own opinion!

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

So if you consider youreself a free person and take some forbidden photographs then you take the actions of what you ve done, i don't know if anyone on this list has experimented the comunist regim, in that days if you would photograph a church translation or the famous queues for bread or meat, or other atrocities and someone from the army or security would catch you with the camera in the eye, well the situation would be very very dangerous, you could pay with the price of freedom and in worst situations with life.

So lets become realists we are not as free as we thought, in childhood we are constraint of our parents of our society, of our Romanian punistic education system ( my case ), so what i've done when i realised that the world that i live in is absurd and has no sense, well i started to study photography, i started to be lone, i was walking in the wilderness every day and night, and it was a tremendous expierience of autoknowing, and get a sense into life, so photography for my is an ilusion, it s a shield it may sound absurd but when you re face to face to reality this is the best option to continue you re existance

Hi Daniel, my experience in 1975, just after the opening of Romania to western travelers. We were crossing the Danube bridge from Ruse (Bulgaria) to Giurgiu in Romania. We stopped to take a few family snap shots of the marvelous river view with my little Kodak. This was in no man's land between the two countries. But what a surprise ! when we got to the Romanian border in about 600 m, the customs police asked for my camera and they seized and "burned" the film pulling it out of the cassette, claiming I was taking photos of military bases. I was very lucky not to lose the camera as well. Another more severe incident in Bucharest made me really think of the meaning of freedom not only in taking photos but even talking to locals, as we were followed by secret police from minute one till our exit from the country 5 days later. In my later pro life, I faced many film seizures doing my job and some of them by extreme force.

As you say, social and I will add economic constrains, are the ones to face before the personal ones and before even thinking what is really the meaning of freedom.

Yes terrible days back then, the situation hasn't change this much, i mean we are in E.U and he have liberty of consumption and travel but our political leaders are very selfish and stupid, normally our country is a democracy but is a terrible democracy, anyway our last salvation for the growth of economy is agriculture

Mette Caroline Strøksnes

12 years ago

Hi - nice post Daniel! Maybe one is the most free as a photographer when one is not showing the photos to anyone. I think that we are so fundamental social, so that as soon as we share with others, we are constrained because it always will be that worry - what will they think of it and so on. I think philosophy in general are more into social theories lately. So this will be a kind of existensialist view: I am doomed to be social? I am not sure where this theory fits in. Maybe it is not good to be free in this more psychological sense of the term. Maybe free is bad because then you are antisocial and do not care about others...? and like Janis Joplin is singing : freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose... so then it follows that maybe it is good that we are not free as photographers ..?

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Hi everybody,

so if we admit we are free then we are responsible for everything that we are doing.

Now that we ve defined the term and made a short history about this concept, let' s talk about freedom in photography, i would like to ask a question to all of you

''Can we admit the concept of freedom in photography ? ''

Daniel..hi..

This was the end of your opening post. The question you asked was about photography - which is very good since this group is about photography.

Do you feel you have your answer and if you do...can you show it to us using Photographs? For example, I would like to know more about what this photo of the uprising in Romania means to you?

Does this photo show you Free Will or Destiny?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Romanian_Revolution_1989_Demonstrators.jpg

and then there are these photos from Poland

http://www.year1989.pl/portal/y89/1219/8696/Poland.html

Did you know about the Solidarity movement there? If so did you learn about any of it in Romania through pictures of some kind.

Did pictures help to move your country along to overthrow the Dictator and then execute them.

How did photos influence the end to the rule of the communists in all of Eastern Europe? Can you show us some?

Can you speak free will...in terms of this massive change that happened in what seemed to an outsider a relatively short period of time? Can you show us some photos that are meaningful to you..about this period?

It is a good topic free will and destiny...or self determination...

Photography in a very special way has documented some of these amazing moments which happened in our lifetime...

Can you take the discussion back to this? It would be most interesting for someone like me.

Thank you,

Phyllis

Forum Moderator

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

How did photos influence the end to the rule of the communists in all of Eastern Europe? ....Can you speak free will...in terms of this massive change that happened in what seemed to an outsider a relatively short period of time?

Hi Phyllis,

A very interesting and a very specific aspect of the free will/destiny/freedom discussion. Depending on how extensively the Eastern Europe movement from socialism some 20 years ago is going to be discussed, potentially it's a huge topic and much of it will not be related to photography. How about discussing it in Off Topic, separately?

Anna,

Who lived through Perestroika

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

is going to be discussed, potentially it's a huge topic and much of it will not be related to photography. How about discussing it in Off Topic, separately?

Anna,

Who lived through Perestroika

Anna,

I agree it is a huge topic...but Free Will and Destiny is even larger..IMO...it covers all of humanity and then some..

I ask these questions of Daniel to bring this topic back to Photography.

So I would appreciate if he would answer them here.....because it is a good way to look at Free Will which is really what his OP is about.

He has made good points...I am wondering how photography influenced free will in his country during the revolution.

Of course if you want to add how or IF Photography influenced the turn of the Soviet Union...in relationship to Free Will or not...also great.....it would really bring this discussion to Photography....

Philosophy is such a broad topic area that we can all easily get lost in it...but if we make an attempt to try bring it back to some part of Photography..i..we can all learn something.

I was living in Greece at that time, and I did not see photos..I did see it on the TV..on CNN International...and it was very powerful.

I would love to hear about your experience with photos and free will on this topic of the revolutions...or movements.

Phyllis

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Well, my point was that discussing Eastern European revolutions will get us very far from freedom in photography, which is the OP essence. So far this is why I'd rather not to discuss it here.

In answering some of your questions about role of photography in these events: at least in USSR it was rather minimal. That revolution was largely done by what was written, how it was written, what was said on the radio and TV, and what was done in real life. Photography was not even secondary.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

In answering some of your questions about role of photography in these events: at least in USSR it was rather minimal. That revolution was largely done by what was written, how it was written, and what was done in real life. Imagery was not even secondary.

Anna...

With the hope of keeping this thread going, but at the same time keeping it on topic, my post was written to Daniel. I have no idea how old he is or what he experienced...if anything in photos.

However, these photos do exist on the Internet...so perhaps if he did not experience it - his parents did and told him about it...maybe from books...I just do not know...

I am trying to help steer us back to Photography, so that this remains on topic for this thread.

I want to be clear. I did not want to discuss the 'whole' of the Eastern European revolutions...I wanted to help Daniel talk about free will..as it relates to the revolution in his country, and to show us that with Photos. :)

Try to to keep this in mind. People see this topic, "The Roads to Freedom in Photography," and it sounds interesting. So they come to look. What they find is a discussion about Free Will and Destiny. No problem because surely this is philosophical. The next question then is how is this about Photography?

If the discussion becomes carried away into deep and long conversations about Philosophy and Philosophers and it is no longer related to Photography, people who have some difficulties with English will not understand and wont stay long. They do not want to read pages and pages of information on a Philosopher. And this group really should be able to appeal to everyone.

So if you or anyone creates a new topic in this particular group, they must be prepared to talk about photography..and also show us some photos.

Back to the Soviet Union. I realize you were not there...but I feel certain that you can tell me what these photos mean...in terms of Free Will...Frankly, if you cannot do it...who can? Who are these people?

http://valdaiclub.com/media/main/51/9215.jpg

http://img.rasset.ie/0004e5f6-642.jpg

And yes maybe it was in writing..I dont know..

But I will say...one of the most powerful moments I can remember in my lifetime was watching people tear down the Berlin Wall. My emotions were so great, that I could not speak...And there are photos of that.....Many photos. and for me they show this inner ability that we have as human beings to fight or freedom...even if it means dying in the process...

So, at least here in this group lets make our best effort to bring things back to photography.

Soon there will be a Documentary group,, and if you have photos of the turn of events in the Soviet Union from then or now...that will be a great place to talk about the revolution..It is coming soon - promise.

Phyllis

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Phyllis,

I am not going to repeat my previous post though still of the same opinion :-) . Much of this discussion so far was both about freedom and photography. We have not strayed, at least not far enough to worry about it.

"And this group really should be able to appeal to everyone."

That is impossible in principle. Philosophy, whether it is philosophy of photography or philosophy of something else, appeals to very few. I have a couple of hundred friends and acquaintances in real life, practically all with higher education. Less than a dozen of them are interested in anything, really anything philosophical. It's a rare "mental hobby", an even more rare profession.

The Yeltsin's picture and the other picture from your post pertains to 1991, while I still lived in what is about to cease to be USSR. I fail to relate these pictures directly to Free Will in any reasonable way, as you request. I can muse on destiny and free will during perestroika and after but, as I already explained, that had almost nothing to do with photography.

"Soon there will be a Documentary group..if you have photos of the turn of events in the Soviet Union"

Phyllis, you missed it: we already have this group for some time. I do not have any pictures from that time. Was not into photography then at all. Just marched with tens of thousands, went to "our" and "their" meetings, and read for hours daily...

Anna

P.S. I stand corrected: you knew that we have a Documentary group, since you are its admin :-))))

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Anna

P.S. I stand corrected: you knew that we have a Documentary group, since you are its admin :-))))

In case anyone else is reading this I just want to be clear. My name as Administrator for the Documentary group is temporary.the same is true for other Moderators..you may see listed as Administrators. I am not a Documentary photographer. However, as I said earlier Anna, this group will be opened very soon, and by two very experienced Documentary Photographers. If you can wait until they arrive I would appreciate that.

Phyllis

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Phyllis,

I am not going to repeat my previous post though still of the same opinion :-) . Much of this discussion so far was both about freedom and photography. We have not strayed, at least not far enough to worry about it.

Anna...

My post was to Daniel, and I would hope he will answer me. However, it is also okay if he does not.

I have responded to you as best I can. I do not think I can make it clearer.

All the posts in this group should in some way relate to Photography. That is as simple as I can put it. It does not matter if you want to discuss free will, or a man on the moon. :) relate it back to photography and all will be well.

Posts that are not related to Photography belong somewhere else. You have done this quite successfully in the past and I am counting on you now.

I do not see anything else to discuss...so why not go back to the topic. If you have more to say about what is and what is not the purpose of this group there is a thread for that which I opened a few days ago.

I probably should mention that , all the Crew are Administrators of this group.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Phyllis,

Moderator, Administrator, Philosopher, Photographer, Mother, Wife, and Grandmother. :)

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Photography can be freeing the soul. It can give a motivation and a purpose to walk up to strangers, to lie on the floor or the ground, to trespass someone's property, to get rid of insecurities, to generally not care too much how strangers think you behave. That can be potentially a huge character and life changer. At the same time photography, at least initially, has a potential to give you a whole new set of restraints and insecurities. Restraints on how and what you think you should shoot, and insecurities on what could be the result comparing to others.

So photography itself offers new roads to freedom. And new roads to subjection as well...

Anna

Marie-Claude PRO

12 years ago

Hello to all of you,

I haven't been around those last days, i'm discovering the last posts this thread.

I thoroughly back Phyllis's words. "we have to remain on topic", I mean, 1X is a photo site, so let's remain within the limits of this site, let's talk about photography, and only photography.

Personal remarks have to be avoided, we all know that.

As a moderator if I happen to read anything not relating to photography, or words i find inapropriate, I'll have to delete them.

I'm sorry, I had to delete part of your previous post Anna, i hope and I'm sure you'll understand I'm only doing my job.

Let's not forget to be respectful to everybody, moderators included.

Thank you very much,

Marie-Claude Couillard

Forum Moderator

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

In direct response to OP, I'd like to describe a visual model of coexisting freedom and destiny that I thought of many years ago. Maybe, when my compositing skills are greater than they are now, it would be possible for me to create a photo illustration of it as well. So far just words, so bear with me.

Imagine a labyrinth made of thin but very strong rubber. This labyrinth represents our life with all of its major and minor choices and we need to enter it and our death signifies exiting it. Each time we come to a choice ahead of us, left or right paths, or multiple paths, we have freedom of selection. Until the next intersection though we are pretty much constrained by the walls and we really have no choice. Then we are given a fleeting moment of freedom at the next intersection. But the whole labyrinth is not build by us. It is given to us like a destiny, yet still leaving some choices. Now if you remember, its walls are rubber ones. You can change the labyrinth shape, a bit. But the more you try to change it the more walls push you back, so you pretty much return to your local destiny between intersections.

Now this vision can be applied to smaller choices in our life as well. Yes, we are free to decide, whether we want to undertake photography seriously or not. But if we undertake it, and go left at the intersection, our path is rather defined for a while. There is no way around not to learn your camera at least to some extent. There is almost no way around looking, what other knowledgeable people are doing etc. The next major intersection in photography is selecting or not your genre. A yet one more intersection is deciding on your style, etc. This is a yet one more model how your choice, taken freely at some point, constrains you for a significant while. Until the next intersection, that is....

Anna

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

So to conclude this topic are free or not when we are taking photographs ?

I guess that this concept it is up to each person, and it's fine because this resolves another big problem like comunism so it's good to have different opinions because we are different by nature.

I like to think that i'm free and that i'm responsible for the actions that i made, so when i've took this photograph http://1x.com/photo/162254/all:user:138341, i knew that i might be caught by a guard who eventually confiscate my camera, yes this is Romania, even though it' s a public space and thousands of people cross there daily, the mentality of the guards is bad, but i was lucky that day.

So there are many examples of constraints in photography, people, buildings, the problems i might cause with my photograph, or the problems i might solve with my photograph. So the ability of being free lies in our hands, we decide and pay for our actions if they are good or bad.

I believe that i make my destiny, so when i was in my grandmas house i knew that i would get a nice portrait of her http://1x.com/photo/91384/all:user:138341, it lies in my intuition, and my action.

So, think before you make an action, like a photograph, think twice at the good or bad things that a photograph could generate.

Ikka Capellan

12 years ago

Hello Daniel,

Founding this site was a luck, but founding this forum the second luck:

well freedom in photography!

Can I do all? Now - all is limited by the society we live in.

If I live at a island alone, we are dependend of the nature!

Can I do all in arte, yes, if you are able to accept the critisme of other,

also depend!

Can I do what I want? yes, if you accept your limits of body, of spirit or of

the ability for development of myself.

A difficult question with different answers.

What I can decide for myself: I will be a good photographer!!

Ikka

And Ikka, you will be a better photographer and person if you abandon all those limits you spoke of. None of them are real limits. If you live on an island alone, and you feel limited by it move, build a boat if you have to. Or, go look at the other side of the island, it may inspire you more.

The society you live in is a poor measure of freedom imo. And certainly, the criticism of others if the least important concern of art for me.

Don't accept limits of body and certainly not of spirit or potential.

Clyde

Hello Clyde:

for example: my fantansy and ideas are going to the end of eternity, but my real life at the earth is limited, as a photographer:

Why:

if you have not enough money for equipment, not enough money for exhibition,

you are limited, your are not well known.

Do you understand now, what I mean?

I can be a good photographer, but if I have no connections, and in this world it is hard, you are limited with the result:

no freedom to be sucessful!!!! Ikka

Ikka

Deleted User

12 years ago

Hello Clyde:

for example: my fantansy and ideas are going to the end of eternity, but my real life at the earth is limited, as a photographer:

Why:

if you have not enough money for equipment, not enough money for exhibition,

you are limited, your are not well known.

Do you understand now, what I mean?

I can be a good photographer, but if I have no connections, and in this world it is hard, you are limited with the result:

no freedom to be sucessful!!!! Ikka

Ikka

You say you want to be a good photographer, yet you seem limited in you mind by things that IMO have nothing to do with the quality of your photography.

Money for equipment, money for exhibition, being well know...none of these relate to your skills and abilities as a photographer. If you have basic equipment, and I see from your 1x portfolio that you do, just concentrate on your work. You are as free to succeed as you can free your mind from these imaginary constraints. And also, abandon any preconceived notions of success that you may have. Success must first be achieved in your own head and eyes.

If you have good work to show, it has never been easier to get the connections and "success" that you seem to seek.

Clyde

Ikka Capellan

12 years ago

Hello Clyde:

for example: my fantansy and ideas are going to the end of eternity, but my real life at the earth is limited, as a photographer:

Why:

if you have not enough money for equipment, not enough money for exhibition,

you are limited, your are not well known.

Do you understand now, what I mean?

I can be a good photographer, but if I have no connections, and in this world it is hard, you are limited with the result:

no freedom to be sucessful!!!! Ikka

Ikka

You say you want to be a good photographer, yet you seem limited in you mind by things that IMO have nothing to do with the quality of your photography.

Money for equipment, money for exhibition, being well know...none of these relate to your skills and abilities as a photographer. If you have basic equipment, and I see from your 1x portfolio that you do, just concentrate on your work. You are as free to succeed as you can free your mind from these imaginary constraints. And also, abandon any preconceived notions of success that you may have. Success must first be achieved in your own head and eyes.

If you have good work to show, it has never been easier to get the connections and "success" that you seem to seek.

Clyde

Hello friend: you have right for yourself: but the reality limited yourself. For example today:

I leave in a valley, there are common buzzards: Today the farmer cutting the grass and the buzzard are flying watching for mouses. I wonderful chance, but I have not yet a good objective to take pictures. I hope if I say I'm limited in photogray. Ikka

Deleted User

12 years ago

Hello friend: you have right for yourself: but the reality limited yourself. For example today:

I leave in a valley, there are common buzzards: Today the farmer cutting the grass and the buzzard are flying watching for mouses. I wonderful chance, but I have not yet a good objective to take pictures. I hope if I say I'm limited in photogray. Ikka

Well, since it seems you are determined to deem yourself limited, all I can say is good luck with that!

Anne Rose Pretorius

12 years ago

No, it's not the rain that's constraining you on those days, it's your desire for sunshine vacation pictures.

Vis a vie photography: If you desire sunshine and nature gives you rain, don't get hung up on not having sunshine, go play in the rain with your camera. Look for the small things that rain can embellish or the large things that sunshine would have hidden.

And Ikka, you will be a better photographer and person if you abandon all those limits you spoke of. None of them are real limits. If you live on an island alone, and you feel limited by it move, build a boat if you have to. Or, go look at the other side of the island, it may inspire you more.

.. my solution for conflicting desires is: use your freedom of choice and pick the more important one. You can always do the other one later on a sunny day.

You say you want to be a good photographer, yet you seem limited in you mind by things that IMO have nothing to do with the quality of your photography.

Money for equipment, money for exhibition, being well know...none of these relate to your skills and abilities as a photographer. If you have basic equipment, and I see from your 1x portfolio that you do, just concentrate on your work. You are as free to succeed as you can free your mind from these imaginary constraints. And also, abandon any preconceived notions of success that you may have. Success must first be achieved in your own head and eyes.

If you have good work to show, it has never been easier to get the connections and "success" that you seem to seek.

Clyde

Bravo bravissimo, Clyde!

We need a group or theme within the group of Poetry, Music and Films, where we can put quotes of members, I might start this over there...

Anne Rose

Ikka Capellan

12 years ago

Clyde, oh,oh, there are opinions that cannot agree, but that's the life:

but what I think is, we was philosophing instead speaking about photography.

So I like to change the discussion to this points:

About photography you are limited by the right of the others or the moral conmitment.

Personal rights:

There are a lot of lawsuit of photographing persons. Normally you cannot take a picture of a person without her/his signed permission.

Moral conmitment:

It will be not accepted to take pictures with unmoral handling only they allowed it.

It will be not accepted to take pictures in some socyties by different religions.

and more.

Ikka

Mette Caroline Strøksnes

12 years ago

In direct response to OP, I'd like to describe a visual model of coexisting freedom and destiny that I thought of many years ago. Maybe, when my compositing skills are greater than they are now, it would be possible for me to create a photo illustration of it as well. So far just words, so bear with me. Imagine a labyrinth made of thin but very strong rubber. This labyrinth represents our life with all of its major and minor choices and we need to enter it and our death signifies exiting it. Each time we come to a choice ahead of us, left or right paths, or multiple paths, we have freedom of selection. Until the next intersection though we are pretty much constrained by the walls and we really have no choice. Then we are given a fleeting moment of freedom at the next intersection. But the whole labyrinth is not build by us. It is given to us like a destiny, yet still leaving some choices. Now if you remember, its walls are rubber ones. You can change the labyrinth shape, a bit. But the more you try to change it the more walls push you back, so you pretty much return to your local destiny between intersections. Now this vision can be applied to smaller choices in our life as well. Yes, we are free to decide, whether we want to undertake photography seriously or not. But if we undertake it, and go left at the intersection, our path is rather defined for a while. There is no way around not to learn your camera at least to some extent. There is almost no way around looking, what other knowledgeable people are doing etc. The next major intersection in photography is selecting or not your genre. A yet one more intersection is deciding on your style, etc. This is a yet one more model how your choice, taken freely at some point, constrains you for a significant while. Until the next intersection, that is.... Anna

I like your model of coexisting freedom and destiny Anna. It is always easier to understand a theory with good models. What I was thinking is that the fact that you can visualize the point and make a theory of it, doesn't that kind of prove that you are more free than constrained? The other thought I got, is : say the model holds - then the intersections becomes very important because they are the only way you can have some influence or a touch of freedom to make choices. If the model was right, I think I would try to avoid the intersections, because it would be so hard to decide what to do....

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Money for equipment, money for exhibition, being well know...none of these relate to your skills and abilities as a photographer. If you have basic equipment, and I see from your 1x portfolio that you do, just concentrate on your work. You are as free to succeed as you can free your mind from these imaginary constraints. And also, abandon any preconceived notions of success that you may have. Success must first be achieved in your own head and eyes.

If you have good work to show, it has never been easier to get the connections and "success" that you seem to seek.

Clyde

Hello friend: you have right for yourself: but the reality limited yourself. For example today:

I leave in a valley, there are common buzzards: Today the farmer cutting the grass and the buzzard are flying watching for mouses. I wonderful chance, but I have not yet a good objective to take pictures. I hope if I say I'm limited in photogray. Ikka

I'd like to reply both to Ikka and Clyde. The way I see it, not having adequate equipment might indeed partially restrict you. The buzzard's example is indeed for me a good illustration. In serious modern bird photography sharpness is paramount. If your picture is not sharp enough, it is not good enough for the most serious bird photographers. Unique bird position or circumstances might alleviate this sharpness necessity a bit, but it means that the vast majority of your bird pictures will be mostly fruitless exercise, useful for training only. The same goes, for example, for serious macros.

Having said that, there are a number of genres in photography for which standard, relatively inexpensive equipment and circumstances are enough: Street, Conceptual, natural light portraits, pinhole, documentary, some abstracts, some still lifes, etc. Yes, concentrating on such genres only limits your freedom of choice but at the same time gives you sort of freedom from equipment requirements.

Anna

Deleted User

12 years ago

I'd like to reply both to Ikka and Clyde. The way I see it, not having adequate equipment might indeed partially restrict you. The buzzard's example is indeed for me a good illustration. In serious modern bird photography sharpness is paramount. If your picture is not sharp enough, it is not good enough for the most serious bird photographers. Unique bird position or circumstances might alleviate this sharpness necessity a bit, but it means that the vast majority of your bird pictures will be mostly fruitless exercise, useful for training only. The same goes, for example, for serious macros.

I think you may have missed my point to Ikka completely. When you use the word "serious" twice you have indicated that your whole perspective is limited already by your mind. What I was trying to tell Ikka and others who read that freedom is in ones own mind first and foremost as are success and relative seriousness of any endeavor.

One is free to be "serious" about bird photography in any way they want not just in the normally accepted "modern" way of taking bird pictures. Those are ideals and standards that don't apply to you unless you accept them. You mind is free to or not and you are free to set your own standards for success and serious application of your art or craft.

All I'm saying is that we are each free to accept these artificial standards and limitations if we want or to set our own.

Anne Rose Pretorius

12 years ago

"We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us."

(Joseph Campbell)

transferred to photography (to stay on topic):

"We must let go of the images we have planned, so as to accept the ones which are waiting for us."

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

I'd like to reply both to Ikka and Clyde. The way I see it, not having adequate equipment might indeed partially restrict you. The buzzard's example is indeed for me a good illustration. In serious modern bird photography sharpness is paramount. If your picture is not sharp enough, it is not good enough for the most serious bird photographers. Unique bird position or circumstances might alleviate this sharpness necessity a bit, but it means that the vast majority of your bird pictures will be mostly fruitless exercise, useful for training only. The same goes, for example, for serious macros.

I think you may have missed my point to Ikka completely. When you use the word "serious" twice you have indicated that your whole perspective is limited already by your mind. What I was trying to tell Ikka and others who read that freedom is in ones own mind first and foremost as are success and relative seriousness of any endeavor.

One is free to be "serious" about bird photography in any way they want not just in the normally accepted "modern" way of taking bird pictures. Those are ideals and standards that don't apply to you unless you accept them. You mind is free to or not and you are free to set your own standards for success and serious application of your art or craft.

All I'm saying is that we are each free to accept these artificial standards and limitations if we want or to set our own.

Yes, of course, you are free to produce "substandard" pictures. You are also free to do just snapshots in any genre as 99% of the world population does. There is nothing wrong with that, and in a way it is freeing, freeing from opinions of others and from "artificial standards". But it is also freeing, on the opposite side of the specter, to be able to produce excellent pictures in the eyes of many and not just your friends and family. Again, as I wrote before when describing my labyrinth model some 10 posts earlier, you are free to make a choice at an intersection (do I want to obey those bird sharpness standards or not?), but once the choice is made - you are confined by it, and as a result either produce non-sharp pictures generally sub-par in the eyes of professionals or invest into expensive equipment.

Deleted User

12 years ago

Yes, of course, you are free to produce "substandard" pictures.

Oh for Heaven's sake! I love you but...you just don't get it!

Big sigh!!

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

"We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us."

(Joseph Campbell)

transferred to photography (to stay on topic):

"We must let go of the images we have planned, so as to accept the ones which are waiting for us."

That's TOO destiny for me :-) . Surely, we have at least some freedom. Many successful conceptual photographers, like Max Sauco or Peter Kemp, talk about their pictures being meticulously planned in advance, and then diligently executed. Which does not preclude from incorporating serendipity or taking pictures that are waiting for us.

Deleted User

12 years ago

Maybe we really do think about what the word freedom means that differently???

In the context of this discussion, there is not standard to be below unless you impose it on yourself with your own mind.

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Yes, of course, you are free to produce "substandard" pictures.

Oh for Heaven's sake! I love you but...you just don't get it!

Big sigh!!

I get it, I just disagree :-) . Or, more precisely, take into account what you refuse to consider.

Deleted User

12 years ago

I get it, I just disagree :-) . Or, more precisely, take into account what you refuse to consider.

Certainly your choice! But it's IS your choice.

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Maybe we really do think about what the word freedom means that differently???

Of course, that is certainly so :-)

In the context of this discussion, there is not standard to be below unless you impose it on yourself with your own mind.

I actually agree with that. Where we differ though, is whether it is worth, in whatever sense worth, to impose those standards on your mind. For you, I gather, it is not worth. The way I see it - it is a strictly personal decision, how much you want to be bound by these standards. Yes, this is still applicable to photography but not only. My personal decision in photography, for myself, in this respect goes like this:

I am bound by rules and standards, as long as they further my vision or are neutral for a specific picture. I discard them when they go against my vision.

For example, this is light and processing, highly unconventional, considered to be bad by some, that I specifically wanted, because it was furthering my surrealistic and conceptual ideas.

http://1x.com/photo/129582/all:user:45800

Anna

Deleted User

12 years ago

I actually agree with that. Where we differ though, is whether it is worth, in whatever sense worth, to impose those standards on your mind. For you, I gather, it is not worth. The way I see it - it is a strictly personal decision, how much you want to be bound by these standards. Yes, this is still applicable to photography but not only. My personal decision in photography, for myself, in this respect goes like this:

I am bound by rules and standards, as long as they further my vision or are neutral for a specific picture. I discard them when they go against my vision.

For example, this is light and processing, highly unconventional, considered to be bad by some, that I specifically wanted, because it was furthering my surrealistic and conceptual ideas.

http://1x.com/photo/129582/all:user:45800

Anna

I actually made no statement that related to my personal sense of that worth at all. I thought we were talking philosophy.? You know that I work professionally for a very large corporation. So you must know that I don't enter that workplace with a completely unfettered creative mindset.

What you just said above is exactly what I have been saying. So I guess we do agree. I would only change one slight part of this: It is strictly a personal decision how much you are willing to be bound by these standards. As preference and willingness are entirely different and willingness is more accurate to my way of seeing this question.

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

I said "how much you want", you said "how much you are willing" :-) . Agreement enough in my book!

P.S. Yes, should've mention this distinction between professional work and hobby. I meant hobby (photography as hobby or art as hobby) all along.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

"We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us."

(Joseph Campbell)

Joseph Campbell - a scholar, a wise man, and difficult to just use one quote for people to understand unless they know him and his philosophy of life...

I think if we say a bit more about him...it will help...to finish his idea...

"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us. If you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of a track that has been there all the while waiting for you, and the life that you ought to e living is the one you are living. Follow your bliss and don't be afraid and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be." Joseph Campbell...

Translation:

This philosophy is not about destiny, but rather about allowing an openness to enter your life so that you can come to 'know' what brings you bliss. You have to be open to all experiences that come to you, and let them just 'be." When we do this we will know instinctively what feels good and not good to us.

You are the only one that can 'know' what your bliss is.

]When you are following your bliss you must move through fear so that your path is clear. This allows for things to enter your life that you cannot and would not have seen had you let fear stop you from taking steps which move you forward toward whatever your bliss is.

This applies to all of life for Campbell. It does not cost any money. What it does require Campbell's would say is some kind of a kind of contemplative life...to get in touch with just what your bliss is.

Applied to photography....

If you became a photographer would you be following your bliss?

If so, then what you need will come to you and help you move forward on that path. You will get a camera, and you will learn to take photos.

He is not saying you don't have to work to get this. He is saying...go for it..if it is what gives you that inner sense of bliss when you are doing it......the universe will help you, but it will not do it for you.

Whether you become famous, take great photos or not, does not matter IF and only IF you have followed your bliss. You will find a way to earn enough money to survive. And it won't matter to you if you earn little because you have followed your bliss. Maybe you will clean houses while you are taking your photos to have money for food.

When you are in this state of mind...things come to you...and it just might be a lens. Or it could be you meet someone, who can offer you something which advances your photography. When you follow your bliss you attract these things to you - because you are open.

You cannot decide what bliss is for another person. What the photos look like is also not relevant to this particular philosophy ...as long as you are following your bliss...

So no one is right or wrong in this discussion. It is only a different perception.

Phyllis

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

It's a nice philosophy, Phyllis, and you translated or commented on his words beautifully.

It seems to me though that this philosophy is more about an immediate bliss, a bliss just waiting to be felt around the corner. But what about long term goals, when a bliss might be some years away and reaching it means planning, restrictions, and perhaps even suffering?

But yes, to make a point it is worth sometimes to reflect only one side, temporarily or not omitting other aspects. Life, the actual life, is someplace between these freedoms and these restrictions, and at various points of our life, at various intersections, we can benefit from following life that is waiting, or life that is planned, or the bliss, or the grit. Paddle at times or drift at times, flow with yourself or against yourself, think or feel, that all can do good, and that all can do bad... And that is also just a perception, or a model, as sometimes right or wrong is....

Deleted User

12 years ago

Joseph Campbell - a scholar, a wise man, and difficult to just use one quote for people to understand unless they know him and his philosophy of life...

Was he a photographer? What kind of camera did he blissfully use?

Don't be mad...I couldn't resist...

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Joseph Campbell - a scholar, a wise man, and difficult to just use one quote for people to understand unless they know him and his philosophy of life...

Was he a photographer? What kind of camera did he blissfully use?

Don't be mad...I couldn't resist...

Well, I would not be surprised. How far are you from Santa Barbara...a big big collection of his work is there..along with photographs. I don't know if he took them...or they are of him...but look here...I tell you if you are not far it would be worth a trip.

http://opusarchives.org/visiting.shtml

http://www.opusarchives.org/campbell_overview.shtml

Whenever he lectured it was with slides...remember those days...I do not specifically recall photos...maybe some..but he uses Art to talk about mythology, religion, and culture. I bet he had a Brownie :)

Phyllis

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Anna,

I wish Joseph Campbell was here in our discussion. I will tell you why.

Observing you here in the forums over the years, you are one person who does enjoy a good intellectual discussion with depth. Having read some of his books, watched so many lectures, and listened to tapes, I can say without hesitation, he would love talking to you.

He has a way of explaining things that can put someone in a trance because of his knowledge. He is like a walking Wikipedia. :) Then you get interested and it is sometimes hard to believe that one person can know so much about so many things. When he is explaining something (he was teacher) he is very clear, and so detailed. If you asked him the question about Freedom and Destiny lets say...he would answer it extensively.

So when he answers he would put the question in the context of the past, present and future, and talk about history, culture, art, religion, mythology....etc..and then bring it back to you..and to your life.

Also, he would be able to bring it back to Photography, without any difficulty, and it would have meaning...In other words it would not be forced. Also any question you asked or follow up would always be viewed as a good question. I say all of this to you because I think if you may be one person who would enjoy his in depth approach.

Bliss.. he would say..find out what makes you happy and then do it. Do what you want to do. I think he meant in everything. Work, Play and Love. All of it..do what makes you happy. Do it now.

Waiting to do what you want is the tragedy because it often never happens. I think he would agree with you that there are some restrictions we have to deal with, and that suffering is a part of life we cannot avoid. If you really are following your bliss then this inner state will be a part of the planning, and your goals; not separate.

In three minutes he explains here in these two short videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JmgLJkrKRc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHBBplGmLbM

One of my favorite quotes of his ..

"Find a place inside where there is joy, and the joy will burn out the pain."

All of this I am sure can be related to photography since that is what were all have in common and love doing. Maybe sometimes the questions we ask are so big, that it is hard to narrow them down to just Photography. Perhaps if we asked a different question we might be able to relate it to Photography better.

Maybe a thread on How does following your bliss affect your photography ?

What do you think?

Phyllis

Anne Rose Pretorius

12 years ago

Thanks so much, Phyllis, for explaining so much in detail about Campbell, yes, I am not surprised at all that you know much of his work :-)

I put just the quote out, because some things can only be experienced and not really explained, and this is actually, what Campbell also talks about...that this state of being (and that also related to photography) cannot be explained in full depth.

In a DVD I am watching at the moment (the power of myth), I have not even finished it yet, he quotes his friend Heinrich Zimmer (an indologist and historian of south asean art, a friend of C.G. Jung):

"The best things can't be told, because they transcend thought.

The second best are misunderstood, because those are the thoughts which are supposed to refer to that which can't be thought about...

The third best is what we talk about..."

So... :-) lets talk about the third best...

And I am trying also to do this by adding some more quotes of him, Campbell, which might give some insight into what is meant with bliss:

“We’re so engaged in doing things to achieve purposes of outer value that we forget the inner value, the rapture that is associated with being alive, is what it is all about.”

“People say that what we’re all seeking is a meaning for life. I don’t think that’s what we’re really seeking. I think that what we’re seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances with our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive.”

“All life stinks and you must embrace that with compassion.”

“We’re in a freefall into future. We don’t know where we’re going. Things are changing so fast, and always when you’re going through a long tunnel, anxiety comes along. And all you have to do to transform your hell into a paradise is to turn your fall into a voluntary act. It’s a very interesting shift of perspective and that’s all it is… joyful participation in the sorrows and everything changes.”

And all of this, I would agree with Phyllis, is also very much related to photography. For me though not so much with the question of becoming a photographer or not, but more the way it can influence how you go about photography, how you take pictures, in which state of mind you are, or how much you are connected with your innermost being, when you take images.

All the best, Anne Rose

Phyllis said:

Maybe a thread on How does following your bliss affect your photography ?

great idea! (Aren't we doing this here already though?)

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Thanks so much, Phyllis,

"The best things can't be told, because they transcend thought.

And all of this, I would agree with Phyllis, is also very much related to photography. For me though not so much with the question of becoming a photographer or not, but more the way it can influence how you go about photography, how you take pictures, in which state of mind you are, or how much you are connected with your innermost being, when you take images.

All the best, Anne Rose

Phyllis said:

Maybe a thread on How does following your bliss affect your photography ?

great idea! (Aren't we doing this here already though?)

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Hi Anne Rose,

Just a quick answer before I leave my computer for today.

You asked..."great idea! (Aren't we doing this here already though?)"

If I look at what I have written and others have written I would say no. We have talked generally,but not specifically and not personally. And not about our photography. So far this thread is general without personal experiences of this 'particular' issue of following your bliss.

That does not mean we must talk about it - it was just an idea. A way to combine Photography with Philosophy in a meaningful way. It was just a thought.

You say...

"

I put just the quote out, because some things can only be experienced and not really explained, and this is actually, what Campbell also talks about...that this state of being (and that also related to photography) cannot be explained in full depth."

Of course this is true, but our problem here is that without talking *by typing) to each other - attempting to explain what we mean, & listening to each other..we have nothing. We have no thread. Just this black page. :))

Also consider this Campbell never stopped explaining and talking - he was a teacher and writer.....So when he says -somethings you have to experience of course this is true...and I believe he refers now to the metaphysical. -

The Power of Myth is a wonderful series. Much of his work is now available on the Internet..on u- tube and on Netflix if you get it there. For others reading this if you want to see all of the Power of Myth in good quality you can find it here..

http://billmoyers.com/spotlight/download-joseph-campbell-and-the-power-of-myth-audio/

As you can probably tell by now he is an American I am very proud of, and one I have learned so much from.

Thanks for the quotes they are all excellent. Thank you for sharing them. :)

Goodnight for now. :)

Ahh. I do have one more link to share on TM ...which is very much related to Photography...another time.

Phyl

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Yes, Phyllis, I love talking to people about something more serious than small talk and I love abstract conversations, when the experience and knowledge make theories possible... So yes, I am sure I indeed would love to talk to Joseph Campbell.

I do a lot what makes me happy. But I do a lot of stuff I dislike. Duty and need is something that is not worth discarding. Life is a balance anyway. And duty and need can be bliss but often they are not. Of course, one can draw bliss from doing one's duty but that is not quite the same.

Anyway, I plan to start a new discussion within a couple of days, about rules in art and photography. Some of these rules can be duty and some of them can be need. Is bliss going to materialize out of them? Remains to be discussed....

Anna

Anne Rose Pretorius

12 years ago

Hi Phyllis,

If I look at what I have written and others have written I would say no. We have talked generally,but not specifically and not personally. And not about our photography. So far this thread is general without personal experiences of this 'particular' issue of following your bliss.

That does not mean we must talk about it - it was just an idea. A way to combine Photography with Philosophy in a meaningful way. It was just a thought.

....

Of course this is true, but our problem here is that without talking *by typing) to each other - attempting to explain what we mean, & listening to each other..we have nothing. We have no thread. Just this black page. :))

THanks a lot, Phyllis, and yes, of course one can try to talk about it and to try to exchange thoughts, and as far as possible, I would. But I am also aware, that we are entering here the realm of what I qoted from Heinrich Zimmer further above, "the best things can't be told because they transcend thought", and we are about "The second best are misunderstood, because those are the thoughts which are supposed to refer to that which can't be thought about...".....so I know we are then easily misunderstood and this happened to me here not only once before.. :-), I will always give it a try though.

Campbell taught, yes, and talked a lot about it, about bliss, about the suffering which is part of every life and that we should embrace it with compassion, but he (as far as I know) never really talked about the how, just about the fact that it is necessary and why. And sure, we can talk about our own experiences with all that and how we approach it, and it would be also interesting for me to know from others. However, I know each one of us will go different about it and must find her own answers, which might be congruent for the one being and not congruent for the other.

I am only hesitant, not unwilling... :-) :-), ready to be persuaded into a different direction,

Anne Rose

Daniel Miroțoi

12 years ago

I like Campbell's philosophy of life and i think that if all the people would follow his statement ''follow your bliss'', they wouldn't be so frustrated of their lives.

So what is he trying to say in this short quote;

follow you re dreams and don't do it for money, if you do a job for the money and only for the money then you're life is absurd, you will be always frustrated and you will live a long and mizerable life, so let you re dreams fullfill you' re path in life, know thyself like Socrates once said, if you want to be a writer then be a writer, if you discover that photography makes you re day better, then practice it day by day and the most important thing don't listen to others, listen to youreself.

Well the most conclutive example in Philosophy i think it's Emil Cioran, he is a Romanian philosopher, who left Romania in the '37, for the life of Paris.

He was the biggest ''modern nihilist'', his life must be understood in the European spiritual and political context in which he lived, a period in which there were the two great wars, great spiritual and ideological lies and reversals of value.

His works are fantastic, he had an authentic and naturalistic style of writing.

He was conscious that the world that we live in, is coming from nowhere and goes to nowhere so what he did ? did he comited suicide ? no, his salvation comed from writing, he wrote and wrote book after book and this thing saved him from the claws of death.

I like to think that when we become lucid of the tragedy that sourounds us, we build shields, shields of ilusions, if we don't cover ourselves with this shields of ilusions then we are condemned, we fall.

Hapiness is an ilusion, writing is an ilusion even photography is an ilusion.

So in order to succed in life follow you re bliss, follow you re ilusions, and if you do photography for money or fame and you don't like what you do, then find a thing that gives you a sunshine everyday.

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Hapiness is an ilusion, writing is an ilusion even photography is an ilusion.

So in order to succed in life follow you re bliss, follow you re ilusions, and if you do photography for money or fame and you don't like what you do, then find a thing that gives you a sunshine everyday.

Daniel,

All of what you wrote is very well said, and you have understood Campbell as I have.

I had a friend who wrote a book and when he signed it he would write this phrase...

"All of life is an illusion, so choose your illusions wisely. "

Phyllis

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Hi Phyllis,

I

Campbell taught, yes, and talked a lot about it, about bliss, about the suffering which is part of every life and that we should embrace it with compassion, but he (as far as I know) never really talked about the how, just about the fact that it is necessary and why.

I am only hesitant, not unwilling... :-) :-), ready to be persuaded into a different direction,

Anne Rose

Anne Rose...:)

Did you mean "how' to find your bliss? That Campbell did not tell us 'how' to do this? Or did you mean something else?

I wasn't sure if that as what you meant.

There are so many hundred, thousands of philosophical concepts - and many can be brought back to Photography. I am hoping that these discussions do relate to Photography is some way - but only because that is the purpose of this group.

As we have learned by talking with each other, you and I both like similar philosophical concepts..or ways of being/living in this world. There are many websites out there for both of us to get involved in these concepts..

What I am trying to figure out is how to take some of those ideas and relate them back to Photography so they can be discussed here. When I saw you mention Campbell, I thought...that with his ideas..this might be very possible..and I do stil think it is...

As you continue to watch the Power of Myth maybe you can share how some or anything that you see can be related to Photography..and then we can talk about?

How does that sound?

Phyllis

Phyllis Clarke CREW

12 years ago — Moderator

Anyway, I plan to start a new discussion within a couple of days, about rules in art and photography. Some of these rules can be duty and some of them can be need. Is bliss going to materialize out of them? Remains to be discussed....

Anna

Well, Anna I am sure you will have many participants, as we know from the past. And this does relate to Photography so it is quite appropriate for this group. You know what side I am on right? :))

Good luck...and maybe new ideas will come out....to help my pictures look better.

Phyllis

Anna Golitsyna

12 years ago

Anyway, I plan to start a new discussion within a couple of days, about rules in art and photography. Some of these rules can be duty and some of them can be need. Is bliss going to materialize out of them? Remains to be discussed....

Anna

Well, Anna I am sure you will have many participants, as we know from the past. And this does relate to Photography so it is quite appropriate for this group. You know what side I am on right? :))

Good luck...and maybe new ideas will come out....to help my pictures look better.

Phyllis

Thanks, Phyllis, for the nice words and wishes.

I started the rule discussion today so heartily invite everybody to participate in it.

Anna